When they say "Burning debris was discovered across the fort site"
I would have said that all this proves, is the fact there was a fire at some time. Perhaps it was an accident, or maybe someone else burnt it when the Romans had left.
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Ian G, is the importance of Scotland to the Romans consolidation, glory and possibly a 'short cut' to Spain.This would mean that the Wet coast would be closer to Spain.
quote:Originally posted by Tetricus: When they say "Burning debris was discovered across the fort site"
I would have said that all this proves, is the fact there was a fire at some time. Perhaps it was an accident, or maybe someone else burnt it when the Romans had left.
quote:Originally posted by Chris Walker: Awful, awful, awful.
quote:Originally posted by Tetricus: When they say "Burning debris was discovered across the fort site"
I would have said that all this proves, is the fact there was a fire at some time. Perhaps it was an accident, or maybe someone else burnt it when the Romans had left.
Compare that with the TT special with MOLAS and you can see the difference with finds and a much bigger charcoal layer.
Regarding 'the geofizz was so good there was no need to dig' polava.... I take it the geofizz team told the excavators that the ramparts that had been displaced (how ever many metres) were separate forts and not part of a double ditch system...
And.... Although you can plan out a Roman fort by association, you can get the odd one that does not comply with the general plan, thats why test pits help with the evaluation.
the only (i think)surviving example of a draco doesnt have a tongue (although some contemporary illustrations do show dracos with tongues)
Is it possible that any whistling device was cut into the teeth of these things? I dont mean right across the gob of it either, maybe one or two on either side. That way you get the whistle and enough air to blow through so the tail could fly?
quote:Originally posted by Ian G.: So she made a contribution by thinking that the 'knobs' on a Draco staff could be whistles. I know I am on thin ice here, but Legions had a standard bearer, usually dressed in a leopard skin, carrying the Legion Standard with battle honours attached to the staff. Cavalry units did not have a comparable unit so would it not be logical to carry battle honours on the staff of the Draco? Does anybody know, or guess, how many Dracos were carried by a cavalry cohort?
firstly in the many contemporary illustrations of dracos i have seen- nonehave 'knobs' on the staff therefore wherever the noise-maker was it wasn't there.
legions certainly had a legion-standard - the eagle-- the staff is usually but not always plain.
each century had a signum which is the standard which has discs- what these symbolised is unclear.
I have never come across evidence of 'battle-honours' in the way a modern army might have them
but some symbols on standards may represent awards given to the unit- which echo the awards given to individual solders
the draco apparently starts to be used by Roman cavalry in the 2nd century (possibly late 1st), by the 4th century infantry use them as well.
interestingly in the paper I have on the draco-- the example from germany has two slots in the bottom surface-- i wonder whether these were considered in the reconstruction?
Is it possible that any whistling device was cut into the teeth of these things? I dont mean right across the gob of it either, maybe one or two on either side. That way you get the whistle and enough air to blow through so the tail could fly?
quote:Originally posted by The Bobo: I knew the whistles question would pop up! The thing is that most of the work that was done on the draco was not seen in the programme. We tried out all sorts of contemporary noise-making devices... you briefly saw us playing with an aeolean harp there, but we found tha one small enough to fit in the dragon head wouldn't make enough sound, and one on the outside would just be too fragile. A reed inside the head couldn't work, as a reed is simply a squeaker, and needs the instrument around it to work as a resonating chamber. As we have a surviving German draco, we know the shape of the metal head, and that it cannot work in this way. The whitles were the only one of several ancient noise-making technologies which seemed to fit the bill. As you will have seen, we did want to put them inside the head, but this did seem to prevent the tail flying, and also the disruption of the air flow over the teeth of the draco meant that the whistles stopped working. The only obvious solution was to try them on the outside. As you can see, there was a lot of careful work done by the very creative team who worked on the draco (Tim, Peter and Valerie)!
although the solution does not fit with the illustration and therefore to my mind not the solution- I think many interested in the Roman army would find the testing and difficulty with different 'noise-makers' interesting- perhaps for something like the Journal of Military Equipment Studies? Since others have reconstructed dracos Im sure some have had a crack at trying to get a squeak out of them and this might be a worthwhile discussion
I can only guess at the reason for Agricola's [not neccessarily Roman] desire to conquer 'Scotland'. A clue may be gleaned from the fact that he was recalled to Rome because the Senate feared another Julius Caesar and/or that he was becoming too powerful with such a strong army behind him. This implies his seeking after personal glory.
Second, and just as likely, is the fact that the Picts were a thorn in the side of the Romans. Agricola must have been aware that here was a people who would never bow down to the Roman yolke. Later history proved him correct, but again that is another discussion.
Third. There was no reason for a military jumping-off point in West Scotland in any war on Spain. They had Gaul, especially the southern Mediterranian seaboard, from which to strike supposing they did not wish to emulate Hanibal.
To understand the military history of any country one must be very concious of its geography. Being an Aberdonian and having travelled in most parts of Scotland I can readily appreciate the difficulties. These were not overcome until after the '45' when Major Wade made his series of 'military' roads which opened up the highlands.
As an afterthought. I have heard/read that Roman forts at Hardknott and Caernarfon were built with a possible assault on Ireland in mind. Indeed I believe that quite recently Roman remains had been found in eastern Ireland.[Anyone else hear this?] It could well be that another jumping-off point in such a venture could have been a harbour on the Clyde. However, I feel that Drumlanrig, taking into consideration its size and location was not really a contender for this.
Third. There was no reason for a military jumping-off point in West Scotland in any war on Spain. They had Gaul, especially the southern Mediterranian seaboard, from which to strike supposing they did not wish to emulate Hanibal.
more obviously the conquest of Spain had been completed 100 years earlier than Agricolas hike into scotland (although there is some evidence for some kind of rebellion/trouble in the AD50s)
My recollection of a Legionary Standard is that it is a cross with a very long shaft. At the very top was a wreath of Laurel within which lay the Imperial Eagle. Below the wreath was a rectangular plaque bearing the inscription " Legio xxxwhichever legion it was. At the end of the short cross-arms were ribbons but I don't know the significance of these. Below the arms and on the shaft were a number [not the same in all cases] of circlular discs. I take these to be some form of 'honours'. The upper echelons of the Legion wore a similar disc(s) on their breastplates. The latter I take to be personal honours whilst the former were honours attributed to the Legion.
As I said however, I am on thin ice here. Roman military matters are not my forte
quote:Originally posted by Ian G.: Indeed I believe that quite recently Roman remains had been found in eastern Ireland.[Anyone else hear this?] Cheers
Ian G.
_Resurgam_
yes-- remains of what is believed to be a Roman site was found decades ago at Drumanagh
Regarding the third point you mention. As I said I am not a fan of the Roman era so know nothing of its activities outside the UK. I was replying to the point that Apathamus had brought up.
quote:Originally posted by Ian G.: Vlad the Impala
Regarding the third point you mention. As I said I am not a fan of the Roman era so know nothing of its activities outside the UK. I was replying to the point that Apathamus had brought up.
Cheers
Ian G.
_Resurgam_
thats ok Ian - I was just trying to add some detail
It was Tacitus that made me think of both 'the glory' and the nearness to Spain. I was thinking more of Southern Scotland being beyond Ireland and so providing a commercial port to connect with Spain.If a shorter sea crossing was possible then a port would serve the area much as Chester was for the West of England. As far as the geography, Dumfries is less of an obstacle than Cumbria,and that seemed no problem to invasion.
quote:Originally posted by Apathamus: Any relation to Rev. Porteus Bruce?
Ian I'm not sure who the G woman is although I enjoyed her spot. Why is there a problem with Cambridge and or A/S whatever that is?
Which Rev Porteus, Apathamus - there have been many! If you know of one I'd be interested to hear. Please contact me at porteousresearch@ntlworld.com. Thanks.
Helen Geake is the 'G woman' and she is a popular and renowned expert on the Anglo-Saxon period. But I, too, wondered why she was so far from home....
I don't have Ian's problem with Helen Geake, but to me it's the same as asking Guy to comment on, say, a medieval dig. Specialists are specialists in their field, and to take them out of it and put them in another place or time period ceases to make them able to demonstrate their specialist knowledge and abilities.
Tet - iirc they didn't really know what exactly was at Turkdean (is it a villa? is it a temple? etc). They certainly weren't able to identify what sort of site it was and name the streets and half the buildings without putting a trowel in!
i think it's a rather naive view that helen or guy could only represent their period - people do specialise, but helen has been an archaeologist, and field archaeologist at that for a long time. Plus all her time with the PAS, means she has probably seen more roman finds than anyone else in the team could shake a stick at. Guy has a broad general knowledge too. No-one would level the same argument at Phil because of his interest in prehistoric sites - archaeological skills can be applied to any period, and specialists are presumably bought in to bolster their knowledge.
OK! To try to answer some more draco questions! The best surviving example of a draco is in the Mainz museum in Germany, and is known as the Niederbieber draco. We worked closely with the Mainz museum on this project, and were sent numerous photographs and drawings of the original. We could find absolutely no surviving signs of any fittings for any noise making devices. This is in spite of the draco being in exceptional condition. The holes that exist in the lower jaw and in the top of the head are simply for the pole to fit through. We even looked into the possibility of this pole being hollow, and the air rushing over the top of it blowing it like a digeridoo! Any suggestions for alternative methods of noise making are always of interest, and it would be great to try them out! But bear in mind that there are no spare holes in the metalwork of the original, and no apparent fittings inside the head either! It really is a bit of a mystery...
Tet - iirc they didn't really know what exactly was at Turkdean (is it a villa? is it a temple? etc). They certainly weren't able to identify what sort of site it was and name the streets and half the buildings without putting a trowel in!
Which was why they needed to excavate this site presumably ?
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You're missing my point, Alan. They knew about the Drumlanrig site - what it was, what was where - before they ever started digging. One of the things I've always liked about TT is the solving a mystery aspect - what was the real mystery to be solved about this site? What new knowledge did they really discover?
quote:Originally posted by Jenni: You're missing my point, Alan. They knew about the Drumlanrig site - what it was, what was where - before they ever started digging.
Ahh, I was under the impression the site had never been excavated before. Unless they were going by documentary evidence alone, if so how reliable was this evidence ? I shall have to watch the beginning again.
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said on the prog.
