quote:

Originally posted by sarah L:
The rape storyline was brutal. I use that word because I still cannot believe their are still people in the world who believe it is acceptable to bring a baby into the world when the it was conceived through abuse.

Look I know I caused a bit of controversy in the last episode thread too with my opinions and I really don't want to put anyone's back up here..but I kind of object to this. I am one of those people you refer to and I don't in any way think it is 'twisted.'
My belief- which I don't in any way intend to impose on anyone here- is that it is completely fruitless to follow one crime/trauma with another. Even without the religious aspect of it all you can surely see the argument with that?

I understand the case was complicated..but to me those parents seemed like they were trying to be as loving as possible towards their daughter and that Neela was interfering where she knew nothing about their relationship and/or beliefs.

Sorry.. but I just had to comment. As usual.
I'll take my raging Catholicism back into the corner now

Aww, Clare - say whatever you feel, my dear. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions as long as they don't use them to launch personal attacks on other people.

In that situation, I wouldn't want to have a child conceived in rape. (Although, right now, I wouldn't want to have a child conceived at all...) And I also think it's horribly unfair for her parents to force their daughter into keeping the child even if that was not what she wanted - and she clearly didn't. It was not their call to make, even as the parents.

Again, Neela was doing what was best for her patient. She felt her patient, despite her own beliefs and her families beliefs, was unhappy with keeping the child.

Yeah, I totally understand that the girl didn't want to keep the child...but the Mother actually believed she did- she said to neela 'Her beliefs are the same as ours.'
So maybe the actual issue here is that they had communication problems...the girl was actually too scared to even tell her parents she didn't want to keep the baby.

I agree that it's the girl's call to make not the parents'- no objections there.

Children having communication problems with their parents!

Whatever next.

Tee hee.

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is that it is completely fruitless to follow one crime/trauma with another. Even without the religious aspect of it all you can surely see the argument with that?

But surely having the baby would be a constant reminder of that terrible night when she was raped

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Originally posted by clareyfairy_:

I understand the case was complicated..but to me those parents seemed like they were trying to be as loving as possible towards their daughter and that Neela was interfering where she knew nothing about their relationship and/or beliefs.

But regardless of religious beliefs, I didn't see any good intent from the parents to the daughter. Good intent within their own moral beliefs, sure, but they certainly weren't doing what was best for her. Whether an abortion or keeping the baby was best, the simple fact of the matter is they didn't ask her what she wanted. The fact that she went behind their backs and had an abortion shows that her parents weren't communicating well with her, and that was what was best. Thus, Neela was doing the right thing: she was seeing what her own patient wanted rather than the parents, who only looked at what they thought best.

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Loved Dr Weaver as a patient. The Luby stuff bored me. And who is this Female Dubenko Wannabe? I hate her, we want Dubenko back. And Susan. And her hair.

And i thought Neela was justified. I would have jumped to the conclusion that she did

Agree 100% Couldn't have put it better

I disagree.
Maybe I am remembering wrong but wasn't Neela pushing the abortion because of her *own* views on the situation. Luka was the one who actually asked the girl if she wanted the baby and she eventually said no. She had previously told Neela (at the start of the ep) that she would keep the baby because to abort it would be 'against God.'

So basically- Luka is the hero of this story...he was the one who properly knew what his patient needed..and he reassured her about it and talked to her about her parents too. Neela was just annoying.

And as for your question Ollie- that's very debatable. I would say the child is an amazing thing to come out of something so horrible.
I recommend the film North Country- it deals with this issue and is incredibly moving. There are also loads of books around with true-life stories of this issue..in particular From Rape To Restoration by Heather Gemmen.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult...obviously it would be heart-breaking. But my personal feeling is that an abortion would be worse.

You've got to consider the child too, not just the mother.
I'm sure there are a lot of positive books and films, but there's certainly also a lot of negative experiences too.

On Abby's Age. I thought she said 33. I must get my ears tested! I was ready to go "No way", but 37 is plausible, given her back story and it fits MT's looks, which are late 30's early 40's. ER have always been quite realistic about age , unlike other shows , which cast obvious 25year olds , say , as high school kids ( Buffy, Dawson's Creek, the OC etc). Most of the cast have had fictional ages close to their real ages and the only exceptions tend to be actors who genuinely don't look their age. E.G Ming Na is older than she looks and Goran Visnjic is much younger than he looks ( I was amazed when I found out in real life that he's actually a year younger than Noah Wyle, which would make him only 33/34 to Maura's 41)

A genuine question to you medical/ theological experts . In what way would using laminaria be more acceptable to someone who objected to an abortion for religious reasons? I understand there's a chance element, but wouldn't they still think it was destroying life? Not being a medical person, or a Catholic, I didn't quite understand this.

Luka may have been right to tell Neela off for jumping to conclusions, but he didn't have to be quite so mean about it and surely he could have let her in on what he was doing, later, rather than sulking and keeping it to himself. Wouldn't it have been a good teaching experience for her? He did his best for the girl, I agree, but he didn't do his best for Neela IMO. He was being selfish towards her.

Oh Helen, I love your name for Clemente "The Evil Elf". I thought the Jimmy Shoo dialogue was funny, but I'm never convinced by JL as a doctor. He strikes me more as a gangster type. I could see him in something like the Sopranos, and that woman behaves like a gangster's moll. Somehow they've strayed into the wrong show.

Finally, I really didn't like the close up of the nipple. It really put me off. Usually, I fancy Luka, but that was a bit yukkie.

quote:

Originally posted by wyle away:

A genuine question to you medical/ theological experts . In what way would using laminaria be more acceptable to someone who objected to an abortion for religious reasons? I understand there's a chance element, but wouldn't they still think it was destroying life? Not being a medical person, or a Catholic, I didn't quite understand this.

Luka may have been right to tell Neela off for jumping to conclusions, but he didn't have to be quite so mean about it and surely he could have let her in on what he was doing, later, rather than sulking and keeping it to himself. Wouldn't it have been a good teaching experience for her? He did his best for the girl, I agree, but he didn't do his best for Neela IMO. He was being selfish towards her.

Oh Helen, I love your name for Clemente "The Evil Elf". I thought the Jimmy Shoo dialogue was funny, but I'm never convinced by JL as a doctor. He strikes me more as a gangster type. I could see him in something like the Sopranos, and that woman behaves like a gangster's moll. Somehow they've strayed into the wrong show.

Finally, I really didn't like the close up of the nipple. It really put me off. Usually, I fancy Luka, but that was a bit yukkie.

Well, on the laminaria: I don't think it is any different. I think the point was more that the girl would feel better because her mother wouldn't have to know. Luka responsed to her idea of God - omnipotent, in suggesting that God would still choose. In reality I think for religious believers it is just as bad as an abortion.

Reagarding Luka, you completely echo what I believe, and wrote. He treated Neela really badly at the end. Even if Neela was wrong in what she said to him, he is her teacher and the girl was Neela's patient. Neela had a right to know what had happened in that room.

I find Clemente convincing as a doctor, but that's it. I DON'T want his complicated love life on my t.v. screen. I would rather he went back to clashing with Kovac and hopefully improving the ER. "Evil Elf" was actually Morris to Clemente btw.

I don't like seeing Luka topless either! Though normally I adore him. Not a fan of his chest, lol.

Thanks for explaining the Laminaria thing. It makes sense now.

Also I got a bit confused about the "Evil Elf" thing. I must have been tired last night (which would explain why I heard 33 instread of 37). Anyway, I don't like Clemente. I'm not madly keen on Morris come to think of it,either, but I am a Neela fan, so maybe I'm biasedt there At least someone else saw what happened between her and Luka the way I did.

Also , thought I might be a bit of a freak not liking the "nipple", so it's reassuring to know that I'm not alone.

I think I know why Morris doesn't bug me anymore; it's since Clemente's arrival - he's just too brusque for me to like him. Aww poor Ray; his dram of rock stardom is a sitting duck!

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my take on it (and to be honest i was a little distracted by how gorgeous luka was when he was getting angry) was that he was so angry with neela because he realised she was right and was being defensive. and so he went back and talked to the girl because he had realised he was wrong.

I may be mis-remembering, but up til that point, the girl hadn't actually told them she didn't want to have the baby, had she? They knew it wasn't planned etc, but had she actually said to them 'I don't want to have this baby'? at that point?

IIRC, once she said what she wanted, Luka then helped her with that. Before the patient made her own decision, it would have been wrong to try to lean her in *any* direction, she had to tell them what *she* wanted. Once she did, Luka did what he could to help her.

If he'd tried to push the abortion option before she'd decided she wanted it, because *he* thought that was what she wanted/needed, that would have been wrong.


Neela had no right in assuming Luka's personal beliefs were making him biased and asking him to leave the case - the girl had been given her options and he was acting according to what he kept being told, that she was having the baby. Once he was told different, he changed his course of action.

If another doctor asked Neela to leave a case because of her personal beliefs, it would not be well-received by her, I suspect.

I'm not surprised he took over the case - although it may have been a good teaching case, it probably doesn't help the patient to have the doctors excusing themselves every 5 minutes to go outside and get into discussions about personal beliefs and biased opinions etc. :\

quote:

Look I know I caused a bit of controversy in the last episode thread too with my opinions and I really don't want to put anyone's back up here..but I kind of object to this. I am one of those people you refer to and I don't in any way think it is 'twisted.'
My belief- which I don't in any way intend to impose on anyone here- is that it is completely fruitless to follow one crime/trauma with another. Even without the religious aspect of it all you can surely see the argument with that?

I understand the case was complicated..but to me those parents seemed like they were trying to be as loving as possible towards their daughter and that Neela was interfering where she knew nothing about their relationship and/or beliefs.

Sorry.. but I just had to comment. As usual.
I'll take my raging Catholicism back into the corner now

I knew this would get a reaction and I meant no offence by it, but it's just how I felt during the episode.

All I have is my experience, but I know that my family (espeically my mum's side, who are more religious than my dad's side) would neither ask or expect me to keep a child if it was conceived in such a circumstance. They would recognise that continuing that process would cause me more damage in the long run than if I had an abortion. That's just my feeling though.

I know I've 'done a Neela' in this respect, as I know little to nothing about the Catholic faith - but I just don't understand how any Christian could justify that, even if they are anti-abortion.

Aww, Abby's keeping her baby! That would've been so much nicer to find out if I had been forced to see a spoiler on here but nevermind....

I love 'Cold Water' by Damian Rice playing at the end...It's such a lovely song!

Well...if someone is anti-abortion, it doesn't mean 'I'm anti-abortion but it's ok if...'...it means they're anti-abortion. Under *any* circumstances.
I know you didn't mean it as a personal attack Sarah and I'm sorry if my reply seemed liked a personal attack on you- it wasn't...I am just trying to explain my feelings on the matter...and they are that choosing to be a Christian is not about pick-and-mix.

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nd they are that choosing to be a Christian is not about pick-and-mix.

Hmmm - it sort of is though isn't it, depending on denomimation - some denominations permit divorcees remarrying, some don't; some permit women priests, some don't; and even within denominations there are variations (or "pick & mix") - gazillions of Catholics use contraception or there's be gazillions more of them.

I don't think anyone can really judge the situation until faced with it. I'm pro choice; the opposite of anti-abortion isn't pro abortion.

As for what Luka owed Neela - he owed her zip. He's the Chief, she overstepped the mark, he dealt with it. It would have been intolerable if he'd gone back to an R2 and explained or justified himself. Personally I think it was a difficult case for him; he thought Abby was off having a termination and I think his circumstances (rather than his beliefs) clouded the issue. However, he didn't just offer the girl the option of a termination he presented it as involving an element of chance which made her better able to accept it; if God wanted her to keep the baby the laminaria wouldn't work I suppose.

I think the parents were very upset that she'd concieved in these circumstances but genuinely felt that her spiritual wellbeing was paramount. I don't think they were fooling themselves that this was a joyous thing or what any of them would have chosen, and I think they were also sincere in their belief that she shared their convictions. And, while they were talking to her perhaps she did. Certainly her mother seemed distressed by the whole thing. They seemed sympathetically drawn to me.

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Originally posted by quidnunc:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lemon jelly:


Favourite Patient: Weaver! She was great! And I actually really do like this storyline with her for some reason. I was worried that they'd run out of things to do with her after Sandy died but I'm liking her character more and more now.
I was glad to have her as a patient this episode, but I think ever since we were even introduced to Sandy things went down-hill for her character. I never thought they dealed properly with all the lesbian parenting issues, and she just started having less and less screen-time from Sandy onwards.

On the contrary it seems like the little brake they gave kerry from the show and susan leaving and kerrys returning really helped her character, she has improved greatly. and I just loved how she keept working even if she was in a sickbed, sometimes she really is superwoman lol

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Originally posted by Mysterious_Asian:
I honestly thought Abby was going to have an abortion. I found the episode quiet interesting. Did you notice Neela's behaviour.. she looked well at of it? I wonder if there's trouble in paradise Anyone else noticed that?

UH I know the answer to that one

quote:

Originally posted by quidnunc:
You've got to consider the child too, not just the mother.
I'm sure there are a lot of positive books and films, but there's certainly also a lot of negative experiences too.

yes there is, I always recommend people to watch the cider house rules if nothing els it's a good movie.
I read all the comments on this thread and I can tell there is some strong feelings here witch is natural to you all, but over here in dane land it's all a bit bizarre. I have allot of US friends who are pro-life or what ever you call it, and I know they feel strongly about the matter, but I've always felt it's better to have the choice rather than not, there is just so many horrid stories about how woman tried to get ride of the baby in the old days were they didn't have the choice, and often end up dead trying. It's all a bit dark ages for me. I don't mean to offend anyone, it's just my opinion, and I can defiantly respect other peoples opinion. this was just my 25 øre.
And maybe Luka did thread Neela bad but he is the boss, and I guess he just need to set him self in respect, I'm sure everything is fine next week.