Something overlooked in the AGW debate is that the global-warmers believe the world as we know it IS GOING TO END... one way or another. I think it could be accurate to say they WISH it to end and be replaced with their ideal version as soon as possible - and if not, they claim, it will end anyway - in disaster. As such, they form the latest instalment of that long line of the ‘Gloom Club’. Stretching back through history, these disgruntled folks who have always held a negative veiw of man’s interaction with the world, of man’s wonderfully creative use of the world’s resources and of man’s inherent need to ‘develop’.
As usual, the threats are the same: “End the world - or the World ends!” And, as usual, the Gloom Club are privy to indesputable 'proof' from stern, wise old men that their prophecy will come to pass in the future they can see.
You can always tell a member of the Gloom Club from the things they say. It’s fairly transparent that if their wise old men (here it’s the Scientists, in other versions of the same story it’s the Bishops or the Mullahs etc etc) popped up tomorrow and said they’ve made a BIG MISTAKE and the world is just fine as it is - these End-of-the Worlders would feel distinctly put-out and quickly regroup around some new fad which once again will definitely, indisputably, imminently bring Armageddon on us all.
But what's really behind all this and why has it been such a common feature throughout human history?
It’s long been recognised that the world is made up of two types of people: the majority who just jump in, get on with life and develop... and the minority who are forever hanging around on the sidelines, ringing their hands in anguish, riddled with envy and refusing to dirty themselves with the messy, greedy, contradictory business of being human and living. These are the people who poets contemptuosly call the ‘virgins’ - full of some idealised ‘love’ but impotent and disgusted by carefree human ‘lust’ (or its modern, scientific Freudian equivalent ‘desire’).
In fact, this whole arguement boils down to the End of the Worlders once again trying to outlaw lust! Once again, according to the Global-Warmers, it is lust which man is fundamentally guilty of! Once again it is man’s lust which is ‘dirty’... CO2 being man’s dirt - the waste-product of his lust! And once again it is man’s lust which has brought us to the brink of extinction!
Now bring on those haughty, trembling virgins once again, quoting their stern, wise old men to show me the error of my ways!...
So you're saying that scientists (the ones who created the steam-engine, genetic engineering, the atom bomb, vaccination, water purification etc.) are anti-development?
One aspect of this which fascinates me, and has gone almost totally unremarked, is the class element.
Have you noticed that this AGW concern is almost exclusively middle class? There is a good reason for this - everyone else has twigged that it is actually a method of restricting working class access to privileges the middle classes have enjoyed for years.
Have you noticed how, when it was only the middle classes that drove big cars and jetted off to exotic locations, AGW was not a problem? But now that the oiks can do it.... well, we have to Save The Planet.
Something overlooked in the AGW debate is that the global-warmers believe the world as we know it IS GOING TO END... one way or another. I think it could be accurate to say they WISH it to end and be replaced with their ideal version as soon as possible - and if not, they claim, it will end anyway - in disaster. As such, they form the latest instalment of that long line of the ‘Gloom Club’. Stretching back through history, these disgruntled folks who have always held a negative veiw of man’s interaction with the world, of man’s wonderfully creative use of the world’s resources and of man’s inherent need to ‘develop’.
This may be a characterisation of some extremist environmentalists - I don't know. But all the climate scientist I know are normal people (ok most of them are normal) with normal lives, and while they are less likely to own cars and are keen on recycling, sourcing local food etc. I've not seen any of the views you suggest being promoted by them.
Have you noticed that this AGW concern is almost exclusively middle class? There is a good reason for this - everyone else has twigged that it is actually a method of restricting working class access to privileges the middle classes have enjoyed for years.
Have you noticed that this AGW concern is almost exclusively middle class? There is a good reason for this - everyone else has twigged that it is actually a method of restricting working class access to privileges the middle classes have enjoyed for years.
Middle class? - Moi!?
Probably - although when I've taken that fiver off you.....!!!!!!!
But I think you'd be hard pushed to deny my basic arguments that (a) it is almost exclusively a middle class concern, and (b) it has only come to prominence since the working class started being able to afford the privileges previously restricted to the middle class.
Whether it is cause and effect is more contentious, but I'll contend it anyway!
Originally posted by JL(SFC58,AFCB): Have you noticed that this AGW concern is almost exclusively middle class? There is a good reason for this - everyone else has twigged that it is actually a method of restricting working class access to privileges the middle classes have enjoyed for years.
Have you noticed how, when it was only the middle classes that drove big cars and jetted off to exotic locations, AGW was not a problem? But now that the oiks can do it.... well, we have to Save The Planet.
Well yes JL(SFC58,AFCB) - the hypocrisy aspect is something I chose to leave out of my message. And the 'restriction' you mention is not just limited to the working class... it also covers the sub-working class of the third world. Large areas of the third world are in danger of 'developing' and the AGW scheme-of-things dictates that they too should 'know their place' and stick their traditional, useful role of innocent, exploited man.
Have you noticed also how the articulation of the AGW concern is not only middle-class, but also predominantly male? A whole new generation of siblings demanding access to the bountiful resources of 'Mother Earth' is causing a lot of panic amongst those who now face having to give up their exclusive rights to what they enjoy. Mother Earth, they protest, is too fragile to cope with all this extra feeding.
I haven't seen a carbon footprint yet, but I'm getting the distinct idea it will be in the shape of a Jackboot.
But I think you'd be hard pushed to deny my basic arguments that (a) it is almost exclusively a middle class concern,
Can you point to any surveys/studies that people who are concerned are almost exclusively middle-class?
I don't accept this.
It is true that working classes in the UK and US have pressing immediate issues such as debt, housing, job insecurity, violent crime on their doorstep.
The working class is far poorer nowadays in the UK and US compared to 30 years ago, as social mobility has decreased and public services have been privatised. So yes they have a lot to worry about, more than middle-class people.
But polls show that two-thirds of people are worried about climate-change, so that would suggest that working-class people may not be talking about it every day but they still worry about it, especially if they have got kids.
And by the way, I grew up on a council estate in a poor family and although I managed to do a degree (in the old days when there was some social mobility) I am back living on a council estate again, no we are not all middle class!
Originally posted by Robbie Writer: It is true that working classes in the UK and US have pressing immediate issues such as debt, housing, job insecurity, violent crime on their doorstep.
The working class is far poorer nowadays in the UK and US compared to 30 years ago, as social mobility has decreased and public services have been privatised. So yes they have a lot to worry about, more than middle-class people.
Sorry Robbie, this is nonsense. The standard of living is far higher today than 30 years ago. JL(SFC58,AFCB)'s 'oiks' have mountains of high-quality, cheap food piled up in every supermarket, cheap transport (and flights abroad) and many more young people are investing in a university degree these days than back in your day.
quote:
But polls show that two-thirds of people are worried about climate-change, so that would suggest that working-class people may not be talking about it every day but they still worry about it, especially if they have got kids.
Perhaps the polls are really showing that the terrorising activity of those in power and the media is having its obvious and anticipated effect.
quote:
And by the way, I grew up on a council estate in a poor family and although I managed to do a degree (in the old days when there was some social mobility) I am back living on a council estate again, no we are not all middle class!
If you made use of Britain's fantastic educational resources to gain a degree and still live on a council estate, it seems very likely that that is your life-choice... or are you going to start blaming Thatcher's Britain for consigning you to the scrap-heap?
Many, many working class people have fantastic opportunities to invest in raising their social standards and achieve things with their lives that their parents never had in the past. It is their success at this that I think is JL(SFC58,AFCB)'s underlying point - which you fail to address.
And by the way, I grew up on a council estate too.
Perhaps the polls are really showing that the terrorising activity of those in power and the media is having its obvious and anticipated effect.
You didn't respond to my point, that if between 66-85% of the population is worried about climate change, is suggests you are wrong that it is an exclusively middle class concern. It concerns most people. That is an absolute fact from all the polls taken.
Originally posted by Robbie Writer: You didn't respond to my point, that if between 66-85% of the population is worried about climate change, is suggests you are wrong that it is an exclusively middle class concern. It concerns most people. That is an absolute fact from all the polls taken.
Robbie, you surprise me.
The middle class concern is that the privileges they exclusively enjoyed are now being encroached upon by falling prices and a newly affluent (and educated) working class.
The 66-68% concern (worry) you refer to is a separate (but related) one - it details the population's response to a theory hatched by the middle-classes in order to protect the privileges their own concern is centred around.
If you want to deal in absolute facts, then ANY poll about AGW MUST form its primary question as: "From what you have heard from those in power about the theory of AGW, and its guessed-at consequences, are you concerned?". Or perhaps, more honestly: "From what you have been told by those in power about the theory of AGW, and its prophesied consequences, are you terrorised?" And, of course, the answer would always be: "Yes, if I believe what I have been told, then I am terrorised." Anyone who believed all this scare-mongering would be a fool not to be terrorised - regardless of class or wealth.
I'm beginning to wonder in this exchange if there isn't a delusion being protected somewhere? Clearly the class-structure of Britain is shifting and clearly this is causing a lot of insecurity amongst people who must face a realisation that it is isn't shifting in the direction they believe it should (either politically or financially). As my first message here suggested - if a person decides that their own life is only worth living (and resources worth using) once society has changed into his or her ideal, then any available straws will be clutched at (including AGW) to protect and sustain that delusion. If this belief were so for anyone, it would be such a huge and total waste of resources that the AGW theory pales into an ironic insignificance in comparison.
1) JL(SFC58,AFCB) stated "Have you noticed that this AGW concern is almost exclusively middle class?"
2) ICM Poll 66% say they believe global warming is due to human activity. (76% say they have noticed the effects of climate change).
3) The C2, D and E social groups make up 40% of the UK population.
So for 1) to be true, absolutely every middle-class and upper-class person in the UK must accept 2).
I agree that there probably a difference in concern between the working and middle classes but JL(SFC58,AFCB)'s premise is false. There is a sizable percentage of concern amongst the working class.
As for your believe that "The standard of living is far higher today than 30 years ago", the official poverty rate in the UK is 13.5 million.
9.5 million people can't afford adequate winter clothing and 4 million people suffer fuel poverty. I know people like this, they exist and only idiots living in cloud cookoo-land like yourself, want to believe everybody in the UK is living well.
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