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Three Silver Stars
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If they lied about the Hockey stick why trust them on anything else.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Billy Bumbly:
If they lied about the Hockey stick why trust them on anything else.

Yes, there are a lot of lies being told about the Hockey Stick graph... by the GW-denial lobby.

It's regularly claimed that the Hockey Stick graph has been "comprehensively discredited" in the peer reviewed literature.

This isn't true -- and all the prominent Skeptics doing the chat-show rounds certainly know this, because the facts of the matter have been pointed out to them many times... Yet they continue to repeat their misleading claims.

Here's what every professional denialist knows (but doesn't tell):

1. About a dozen different studies, carried out by different research teams at various different universities, have produced temperature reconstructions based on recent measurements and proxy data (e.g., tree-ring samples from around the world etc.). ALL of these peer-reviewed studies produce essentially similar results, a graph with "hockey-stick" shape, in which recent temperatures rise sharply upward in an unprecedented way.

2. Two of these studies, published in 1998 and 1998 by Mann, Bradley and Hughes, were criticised in a paper by McIntyre & McKitrick (2005). These Authors pointed out a technical error in the use of a particular statistical technique used in MBH-98 and MBH-99 -- and then argued that this error rendered the results completely invalid. NOTE: even if this conclusion were true, the M&M criticism applies ONLY to these two papers: MBH-98 and MBH-99.

3. Subsequent peer reviewed papers by other authors demonstrated that while the error in MBH98 was real, it was minor. When the mistake is corrected and the calculation is re-done, the graph looks basically the same. In any case, other research teams have produced temperature reconstructions using different, but equally valid, statistical methods. NO-ONE has published an argument in the peer reviewed literature to show that there are errors in ALL of these studies... which co-incidentally cause the graphs to come out looking the same! Hence, the M&M criticism certainly doesn't invalidate "Hockey stick graphs" in general.

4. So, why did M&M exaggerate their argument so much? You may well ask. Neither of them are climate scientists; McIntyre
is a "semi-retired" energy and minerals consultant -- and McKitrick is a right-wing economist; a Fellow of the Fraser Institute... a corporate-funded right-wing "think-tank" whose ceaseless promotion of climate-change denial propaganda might just conceivably have something to do with the fact that they're heavily funded by ExxonMobil (and other such corporations).

5. A panel of scientists in different disciplines was assembled by the National Research Council to carry out an intensive peer-review investigation the controversy. They concluded that there was indeed an error in MBH98 and MBH99 -- but it was minor and had no important effect on their results. Further more, independent studies had replicated these results, using quite different mathematical techniques... in which there was no evidence of error.

6. The notorious Wegman report, which attacked Mann and his team, was produced by a trio statisticians -- specially selected for the task by Republican Congressman Joe Barton (an outspoken critic of "global warming" science). Their report was not submitted to peer review, involved no climate scientists, and majored on personal attacks against the integrity of Mann and his colleagues. Exactly what Barton wanted.

Bottom line: there's no evidence whatsover to show that there's anything wrong with recent (post-MBH99) Hockey stick graphs.

Yet people who know all all these facts keep repeating the claim: "The Hockey Stick has been discredited in the peer-reviewed literature... It's a lie! Don't trust these IPCC liars!"

Pots and Kettles, anyone...?


* Free-thinking does not just mean choosing to believe whatever makes you feel good. There's no thought at all in that. *
 
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And who funds the likes of Mann?
 
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quote:
Originally posted by JL(SFC58,AFCB):
And who funds the likes of Mann?


No idea but does his science hold up? I think it does. BTW goodun heretic.

I read somewhere even if the doubters were right with their stats it wouldn't even change the conclusions. Feelin hot hot hot!


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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But the Hockey Stick, although factualy correct, gives a completely false impression by the choice of scale. Plot it again, converting the temperatures to the Kelvin scale, and showing the WHOLE scale, from zero to the highest reading, and you will see a more accurate picture. Some highly-recommended reading - "How to Lie With Statistics" by Darrell Huff. Should be a part of Every Science course.
 
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Three Silver Stars
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Plot it again, converting the temperatures to the Kelvin scale, and showing the WHOLE scale, from zero to the highest reading.

That suggestion sounds utterly bizarre to me because the zero point of the Kelvin scale is equivalent to -273.16 °C on the Celsius scale. The Kelvin zero point is considered the lowest possible temperature of anything in the universe, where even atomic movement stops!
At the freezing point of water, the temperature of the Kelvin scale reads 273 K. At the boiling point of water, it reads 373 K.
Do you know what 297 K means in real world terms? (It’s 24 degrees C or 75 degrees F.) No one except a very few would even understand it.
And what would you do with all that space between 273 K (zero degrees C) and –273 degrees C? (Atomic movment ceases.)Get real.

At the time of the Hockey Stick hoo-ha another Republican Senate committee turned to the American National Academy of Sciences to see if they could find a way of settling the issue. [2006].
The US National Academy of sciences compared eight different temperature reconstructions, using different proxy methodologies, and concluded that:
“The committee finds it plausible that the Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period over the preceding millennium.”

The full 149 page NAS report that has been made available online.
I’ve set the link below to page 2 where they overlay the different reconstructions. See what you think.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11676&page=2
As well as turning pages you can also go to contents to navigate to chapters and print if you wish to read it on paper.
 
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Two Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie B.:
But the Hockey Stick, although factualy correct, gives a completely false impression by the choice of scale. Plot it again, converting the temperatures to the Kelvin scale, and showing the WHOLE scale, from zero to the highest reading, and you will see a more accurate picture. Some highly-recommended reading - "How to Lie With Statistics" by Darrell Huff. Should be a part of Every Science course.

There are things in any graph that can be adjusted to mislead or otherwise give different impressions. For example, you can stretch or shrink the range or domain to give different impressions. Using different temperature scales(K, C, or F), however, makes no difference at all. That being said, Mann's "Hockey Stick" may have data problems. He was also quite reluctant to reveal his methodology so that others could check his results.
 
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Three Silver Stars
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‘If they lied about the Hockey stick why trust them on anything else.’ Billy Bumbly

Put another way, how likely would be that McIntyre and McKitrick, Senator’s Barton and Inhofe et. al. were ever going to turn round and ever say [of any research that concluded that the latter 20th century was the warmest of the past millenium] –
yes, a splendid piece of work, we can’t fault the methodology and of course we accept the conclusions.”
My cat’s laughing at the very thought. J

It’s very much like some of the ‘discussions’ on these and other boards. They set out to find something, absolutely anything at all they could then claim discredited the graph.

Someone’s put together a reasonably evenhanded full account of the controversy here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

And who funds the likes of Mann? JL(SFC58,AFCB)

Michael Mann is Associate Professor at Pennsylvania State University, in the Department of Meteorology and Earth and Environmental Systems Institute. Ray Bradley is a Professor in the Department of Geosciences at the University of Massachusetts. Malcolm Hughes is professor of dendrochronology at the University of Arizona.
They’re University scientists. And fees, bursaries and donations etc fund USA universities.

Ross McKitrick by the way is a senior fellow at the Fraser Institute, a libertarian think tank that doesn’t disclose where it’s funding comes from. They simply say ‘52% was from unspecified foundations, 38% from unspecified "organizations" and 10% from individuals’. Hmm, something to hide perhaps? So why should I trust them if they wont even say who funds them?

As for reluctant to disclose information – humm, You mean just as Julius Ceasar was also reluctant to hand Brutus a dagger for the same reasons perhaps? (Is that a sharp pain I feel in my back…)
 
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quote:
Originally posted by JL(SFC58,AFCB):
And who funds the likes of Mann?


I suppose the likes of us - the taxpayer!

I've had a look at his website.
http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html

He's in the Department of Meteorology at Penn state university (amongst other things). And presumably has security of tenure with it and rightly so IMHO.


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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Four Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by realprimate:
quote:
Originally posted by JL(SFC58,AFCB):
And who funds the likes of Mann?


I suppose the likes of us - the taxpayer!

I've had a look at his website.


http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/index.html

So a government funded one.

He's in the Department of Meteorology at Penn state university (amongst other things). And presumably has security of tenure with it and rightly so IMHO.
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JL(SFC58,AFCB):

So a government funded one.

Aye and I bet President George W. Bush hands him his paycheck with gritted teeth.


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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Four Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by realprimate:
Aye and I bet President George W. Bush hands him his paycheck with gritted teeth.


Yes, I'll bet he does. That's the drawback of tenure - besides shielding the maverick, it also allows the incompetent to still get paid.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by JL(SFC58,AFCB):

Yes, I'll bet he does. That's the drawback of tenure - besides shielding the maverick, it also allows the incompetent to still get paid.


Don't be so hard on George W.!


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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Four Silver Stars
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Originally posted by realprimate:
Don't be so hard on George W.!


Wish I knew how to use the emoticons on this MB. Definitely worth a smiley!
 
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Smile
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve_M:
Smile


Before the IPPC hits us again here's another one worth a smiley. Found in me in-tray and getting seriously off topic...

**********
Forget carbon offsetting - join us for our Easter chocolate offsetting campaign!
We are delighted to bring you a special Easter chocolate promotion and exclusive advice to help you offset your chocolate footprint! All you need do is forward this email to a friend, and you will be automatically entered into our Easter draw. Designed to share, we have five great chocolate prizes to win, either just for you, or to share with your co workers! And best of all you can enjoy your prize 'guilt free' as we have joined forces with www.chocolateoffsetting.com so that you can offset your winnings and your guilt!

And don't forget to update your CV, or refresh your profile, so once the fun of Easter is over, you can make sure you get all the latest jobs in your inbox. With more than 26,000 jobs live across our network, there has never been a better time to think about your next career move or find that perfect job. Or search now and apply for a new job before you take your chocolate break!

Happy Easter.

Entries close 30th April, winners will be notified by email.

*****************8


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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One Gold Star
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IPCC. Doh. Two smileys for the price of one!


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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Three Silver Stars
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And don't forget to update your CV, or refresh your profile, so once the fun of Easter is over, you can make sure you get all the latest jobs in your inbox. With more than 26,000 jobs live across our network, there has never been a better time to think about your next career move or find that perfect job. Or search now and apply for a new job before you take your chocolate break!

Jobs? Jobs? Jobs? I just see recipes and yummy fruit and veg.

Great idea, very funny, have forwarded to the chocoholics I know.
(Will someone do an ‘argument offsetting’ calculator for Valentines Day? ‘Alcohol Offsetting’ for Christmas? etc.)

Smilies – look at the top of the Post a Reply box. Razz Wink
FormaFormatting tting takes a bit of working out; you can copy and paste [Right click] from the page into the box and click OK at the end. Needs a steady hand.
 
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FormaFormatting tting

I did say it needed a bit of working out. Still working on it. Could be why no one uses it.
 
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Two Gold Stars
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Will this work? Formatting
 
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Two Gold Stars
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Cool Not too hard!
 
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One Gold Star
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shefftim:

(Will someone do an ‘argument offsetting’ calculator for Valentines Day? ‘Alcohol Offsetting’ for Christmas? etc.)

QUOTE]

Wow how do I do it? Here's yet another that's seriously off topic. Last one I promise.

http://www.cheatneutral.com/

Now where's that new CCCP report?


God Bless Dave Rado!
 
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