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skeptical yank
Two Silver Stars
Posted
Al Gore claims that he purchases carbon credits to offset his “CO2 footprint”. Actually a company he co-founded pays for his credits. (side note. I saw yesterday he received half a mil in royalties from a heavily polluting zinc mine. Can he purchase zinc offsets?)

John Edwards claims he also purchases credits to offset the “footprint” from his 28,000 square foot house and lifestyle.

Are they really global warming warriors or are they today’s versions of medieval princes purchasing “indulgences” (wish I could take credit for that line) to pay for their environmental sins?
 
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Steve_M
Two Gold Stars
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No they are the only way to save humanity from disaster.

Plus I'm having the most fun ever with the help of:
 
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real scientist
Two Silver Stars
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I think there is no doubt that it is better to fly 1000 miles and then to pay money to stop others from polluting than it is just to fly 1000 miles.

Obviously the best alternative from a moral 'lets save the planet' prespective is just not to fly.

1) Don't fly (gold)
2) Fly but offest (silver)
3) Fly without offest (wooden spoon)
 
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real scientist
Two Silver Stars
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good thread by the way. Can't wait to see how it develops.
 
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Mubbers
Three Silver Stars
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I think there is a great potential for being scammed when trying to offset your carbon footprint.

Honestly who is going to check to see if their tree has ever been planted? However I do think (regardless of my personally AGW sceptical stance) that planting trees for whatever reason is a good idea.

Trees are good and we've cut too many of them down in the world.

Western governments could I suppose grant aid to endangered rainforest regions of the world to fund reforestation. This could be monitored by treaty and tangibley measured.

Also I am wondering:

If previously Ice covered areas of the world become ice free would the resultant plant growth in any way naturally offset the (alleged) CO2 that caused the melting originally?

Wouldn't a natural balance be thus found?


Disclaimer: In no way does this represent a reversal from my completely sceptical postition viz AGW
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mubbers:
I think there is a great potential for being scammed when trying to offset your carbon footprint.

Honestly who is going to check to see if their tree has ever been planted? However I do think (regardless of my personally AGW sceptical stance) that planting trees for whatever reason is a good idea.

Trees are good and we've cut too many of them down in the world.

Western governments could I suppose grant aid to endangered rainforest regions of the world to fund reforestation. This could be monitored by treaty and tangibley measured.

Also I am wondering:

If previously Ice covered areas of the world become ice free would the resultant plant growth in any way naturally offset the (alleged) CO2 that caused the melting originally?

Wouldn't a natural balance be thus found?


Disclaimer: In no way does this represent a reversal from my completely sceptical postition viz AGW


Mubbers, If I understand Mr Lovelock you are spot on here. What would we rather have Trees or Wind Turbines? For all the apparent brain power in the AGW lobby around this forum its amazing how they seem to miss the flaming obvious!

Another thought, take a look at the satellite images of the western world at night. If man made GW was really such a threat wouldn't we have turned the lights off by now? I'm not old enough to have lived through WWII but I believe that's precisely what we did when truly threatened.
 
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Son of Mulder
One Gold Star
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Mubbers
quote:
If previously Ice covered areas of the world become ice free would the resultant plant growth in any way naturally offset the (alleged) CO2 that caused the melting originally?


Yes but it would absorb more heat from the sun instead of reflecting it. Whoops!
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Mulder:
Mubbers
quote:
If previously Ice covered areas of the world become ice free would the resultant plant growth in any way naturally offset the (alleged) CO2 that caused the melting originally?


Yes but it would absorb more heat from the sun instead of reflecting it. Whoops!


Have you ever been to Greenland?
 
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Son of Mulder
One Gold Star
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Have you ever been to Greenland?


No.
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Mulder:
quote:
Have you ever been to Greenland?


No.


Thought not !
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Mulder:
quote:
Have you ever been to Greenland?


No.


Thought not !


Most of the year the sun hardly gets above the horizon.
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Mulder:
quote:
Have you ever been to Greenland?


No.


Thought not !


Most of the year the sun hardly gets above the horizon.


BTW those horrifying pictures of the ice sheets melting and ice bergs forming are taken in the height of summer! What a surprise !!
 
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MindCrime
Four Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
Most of the year the sun hardly gets above the horizon.

But since locking up CO2 relies on photosynthesis the two effects probably balance out.
 
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MindCrime
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
BTW those horrifying pictures of the ice sheets melting and ice bergs forming are taken in the height of summer! What a surprise !!


Yeah, and mostly they're showing pictures of the Arctic sea ice which doubles/halves its size with the seasons.
 
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Son of Mulder
One Gold Star
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quote:
Most of the year the sun hardly gets above the horizon


So why is one of the big AGW scares that if the ice sheets melt it will exacerbate Global warming by not reflecting so much sunlight?

Or is it just a scare?
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Mulder:
quote:
Most of the year the sun hardly gets above the horizon


So why is one of the big AGW scares that if the ice sheets melt it will exacerbate Global warming by not reflecting so much sunlight?

Or is it just a scare?


Of course its a scare - did you see the Horizon(?) program that traced the life cycle of an iceberg? It's shape was formed in its infancy by summer melt waters. 300 years later it sank the Titanic ! So whats new ? If we are un-naturally releasing locked up CO2 stop destroying the rain forests and continental shelves and restore some (most?) of what has been lost. Tell the pope to start advocating condoms. etc etc. But don't let some rabid capitalist opportunist plant windows turbines all over our most precious landscapes !!
 
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Steve_M
Two Gold Stars
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My apparently meaningless post at the top included a link to a site criticising carbon offsetting in an amusing way by suggesting that you could cheat on your partner but be absolved by paying someone else to be faithful - obviously the moderators didn't like the link.
 
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Pandamania
One Silver Star
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quote:
Are they really global warming warriors or are they today’s versions of medieval princes purchasing “indulgences” (wish I could take credit for that line) to pay for their environmental sins?


That's a perfect anaolgy for this scam and ties in perfectly with the theocratic mentality of the Global Warming fanatics. It's just like pleaneary indulgences now that you mention it. Well spotted.

Al Gore is your typical demented aristocrat.
 
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skeptical yank
Two Silver Stars
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One great example is a landfill that sells offsets. The sale of offsets goes toward burning off methane. They were doing this before they started selling offsets but now they're paid to perform a public service, assuaging the guilt of enviro-hypocrits.
 
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Mubbers
Three Silver Stars
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve_M:
My apparently meaningless post at the top included a link to a site criticising carbon offsetting in an amusing way by suggesting that you could cheat on your partner but be absolved by paying someone else to be faithful - obviously the moderators didn't like the link.


That's a real shame, it was total class.

I signed up! Wink
 
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TheHeretic
Two Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MindCrime:
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
BTW those horrifying pictures of the ice sheets melting and ice bergs forming are taken in the height of summer! What a surprise !!


Yeah, and mostly they're showing pictures of the Arctic sea ice which doubles/halves its size with the seasons.


Yeah, right... a fact that's obviously lost on all those evil, lying, hysterical scientists and environmentalists who keep reporting observations that the extent of arctic sea ice is dropping, year on year. They're obviously just lying -- or too stupid to realise that ice melts in the summer. It's all a con, isn't it... how perceptive of you to realise the truth!

BACK IN THE REAL WORLD...

Arctic specialists at the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre at Colorado University, who have documented the gradual loss of polar sea ice since 1978, started to report more dramatic reductions about four years ago.

In September 2002 the sea ice coverage of the Arctic reached its lowest level in recorded history. Such lows have normally been followed the next year by a rebound to more normal levels, but this did not occur in the summers of either 2003 or 2004. This summer has been even worse. The surface area covered by sea ice was at a record monthly minimum for each of the summer months - June, July and now August.

Satellites monitoring the Arctic have found that the extent of the sea ice this August has reached its lowest monthly point on record, dipping an unprecedented 18.2 per cent below the long-term average.

It's now predicted that if warming trends continue unabated (whatever their cause), the arctic could
be entirely free of sea ice in Summertime, by as early as 2040.

BUT FOR SKEPTICS... this is no cause for concern. It's blindingly obvious that there just CAN'T be any truth in it. All these so-called "scientists" aren't *real* scientists at all -- they're religious fanatics, who'll tell any lie and exaggerate their results for the purpose of encouraging public hysteria about global warming... Why? Because they wan't governments to impose totally unecessary taxes and restrictions. Why? Well, I guess they just hate humanity! In any case, these facts about the motivation and integrity of the vast majority of academic scientist are so obvious, no evidence is required to prove them.

Nice to have an easy way of convincing yourself that there's nothing to worry about, isn't it?


* Free-thinking does not just mean choosing to believe whatever makes you feel good. There's no thought at all in that. *
 
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Popsarmchair
New Member
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mubbers:
...If man made GW was really such a threat wouldn't we have turned the lights off by now? I'm not old enough to have lived through WWII but I believe that's precisely what we did when truly threatened.

The problem is that nobody truly feels treatened. Not like if someone were to target your home with a WWII 500lb high explosive bomb; sure you'd turn your lights off then. The threat is just not personal enough yet. Unfortunately, it will take a dramatic personal impact before we are prepared to to make individual sacrifices.
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TheHeretic:
quote:
Originally posted by MindCrime:
quote:
Originally posted by Seskinreay:
BTW those horrifying pictures of the ice sheets melting and ice bergs forming are taken in the height of summer! What a surprise !!


Yeah, and mostly they're showing pictures of the Arctic sea ice which doubles/halves its size with the seasons.


Yeah, right... a fact that's obviously lost on all those evil, lying, hysterical scientists and environmentalists who keep reporting observations that the extent of arctic sea ice is dropping, year on year. They're obviously just lying -- or too stupid to realise that ice melts in the summer. It's all a con, isn't it... how perceptive of you to realise the truth!

BACK IN THE REAL WORLD...

Arctic specialists at the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre at Colorado University, who have documented the gradual loss of polar sea ice since 1978, started to report more dramatic reductions about four years ago.

In September 2002 the sea ice coverage of the Arctic reached its lowest level in recorded history. Such lows have normally been followed the next year by a rebound to more normal levels, but this did not occur in the summers of either 2003 or 2004. This summer has been even worse. The surface area covered by sea ice was at a record monthly minimum for each of the summer months - June, July and now August.

Satellites monitoring the Arctic have found that the extent of the sea ice this August has reached its lowest monthly point on record, dipping an unprecedented 18.2 per cent below the long-term average.

It's now predicted that if warming trends continue unabated (whatever their cause), the arctic could
be entirely free of sea ice in Summertime, by as early as 2040.

BUT FOR SKEPTICS... this is no cause for concern. It's blindingly obvious that there just CAN'T be any truth in it. All these so-called "scientists" aren't *real* scientists at all -- they're religious fanatics, who'll tell any lie and exaggerate their results for the purpose of encouraging public hysteria about global warming... Why? Because they wan't governments to impose totally unecessary taxes and restrictions. Why? Well, I guess they just hate humanity! In any case, these facts about the motivation and integrity of the vast majority of academic scientist are so obvious, no evidence is required to prove them.

Nice to have an easy way of convincing yourself that there's nothing to worry about, isn't it?


Hi TheHeretic, I doubt there is a real scientist at work anywhere on this forum esp the guy who calls himself RealScientist. I suspect they are in it for the intellectual stroking it gives them!! Whereas it seems to me the so called skeptics can see beyond the cosmic rays and come at it from many different angles. They point up the "Politics of Fear" etc and wonder why, if we are really in such dire straits, politicians say one things and do another, like expanding airports, leaving the lights on at night so that Europe & the USA glow white hot, "going for growth" etc etc etc.

Re the loss of Arctic ice, what is new? A four year trend? Do me a favour. A bit of Darwinian theory here for you - why are Arctic foxes and Ptarmigan brown in summer and white in winter? Is it possibly because the ice melts in summer and re forms for the rest of the year and always has done? Or have these species adapted in the past 4 years?
 
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Seskinreay
Four Silver Stars
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TheHeretic:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MindCrime:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seskinrea

Nice to have an easy way of convincing yourself that there's nothing to worry about, isn't it?


Ps, why are YOU worried? Do you really believe we a so significant that a) we can cause GW and b) do something about it? We can't even control our numbers and stop ourselves from eating ourselves out of a living. My advice is to worry about thigs you can control - Gaia will sort it eventually - always has done !!
 
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