I believe that it was you who criticised teachers for their "meaningless rules" when in fact they are in place to make an already difficult task easier. Any discussion on any topic is always going to bring about a conflict of ideas which are engendered by those putting them forward. This is what debate is about! One person debating the merits or otherwise of other people's viewpoints! It was my standard of "education" that was criticised in the first place in addition to the practices of teaching staff to elicit some kind of standard rules in the classroom.

Teachers do not create the rules,they are merely expected to enforce them.One of the the reasons for dissaffected teachers leaving the job in their droves .
Students who believed teaching to be their vocation are given a short sharp shock when they must undergo their student teaching.You could say it sorts the Wheat from the Chaff or you could say ,that the proffession has waved goodbye to some excellent teachers.

I could not agree more! One of the problems with teaching today is that we are expected to accept new ideas and implement them immediately. No sooner have we done this than the goalposts are changed again! We have had massive changes to the curriculum in terms of the Sciences, English etc. and these are quickly followed by more. What happened to giving time to allow new ways to be embedded. Ask the "chalkface" workers what they think of these changes and the response would be, resoundlingly, nonsense. In English pupils are allowed to prepare and redraft work at home. How many are "helped" by their parents or older family members? I know several kids who openly admit that they are tutored at home and that their tutors redraft their work! Since this counts towards their final exam mark what kind of representation is this of their own ability? Many good teachers are thoroughly disgruntled with the mass of administration that has to be carried out today, leaving less time for actual teaching. Others are fed up with the verbal and physical abuse suffered on a daily basis from the louts who, when challenged, bring their parents in to question why their child is not allowed to listen to music in class or eat or chew gum or chat to their friends if they think the lesson is "rubbish"! Of course it is the fault of Government who force children into taking academic subjects in order to raise the performance figures for schools. To make it appear that they are succeeding they introduce "passes" at lower and lower grades. There are some children who will never achieve academic success in languages or computer studies or mathematics so why not accept this? These same kids could, however, have great abilities in other practical fields such as metalwork, woodwork, mechanics, catering etc. which are not catered for in our present system. Schools need to be more varied in their approach to "education" and this can only come from the "bosses". They must see, and accept, that not all kids will attain "academic" greatness but can achieve greatness in other areas in which their particular skills lie. Until that time we, as teachers, will always be faced with the same problems of dissatisfaction, contempt for our subjects, verbal abuse and all the other problems that stem from unfullfilled pupils.

Hey!! Not so average Average Joe, you tricksy guy, or was it a sincere attempt at modesty.

When I made my first post, I was killing time before going to see Pride and Prejudice,, interestingly enough, some years ago I’d read a book called The New Idea Of A University, http://www.imprint.co.uk/books/maskell.html I’m not sure to what extent I agree with it but I recall the idea of ‘education’ being put into interesting perspective. I looked up ‘education’ and ‘educated’ in the OED last night. There was mention of ‘systematic instruction’ (probably largely characterised by rote) and ‘development of character’ and ‘educated’ as a result of (good) education. In an earlier post I made mention of ‘all things relative’. For the sake of this discussion, at least, I’m going to say that ‘good’ education is evident only by how it has developed the character of an individual, or group, but specifically the individual.

About my being irrational and twisted (my words), my experiences, especially in my teens, often left me with a large sense of inadequacy, frustration, failure, humiliation etc etc. Maybe a lot of that is due to a rather unfortunate physiological disposition; like what I mentioned about the prefrontal lobes of the neocortex.
In the years of my child hood/ adolescence, I could probably think of several examples, but one person in particular comes to mind who would probably have rated quite highly on your conception of ‘well educated’, and certainly he was above average at school. I don’t think he was all bad - actually quite impressive in many respects that I have since tried to emulate, and like wise I don’t assume that you are all bad or misguided.
This person, however, was as far as I was concerned, a rather arrogant know-all, I largely felt oppressed in his company (imposed upon), I didn’t really know how to deal with this. Upon reflection I think this was one of the main reasons why I have had a pretty major distrust of the ‘conventional’ notion of education and economic, institutional, imperatives.

Probably about twelve or thirteen years ago I recall someone I knew, a humble religious man, tactfully drawing attention to my use of big words. People may find it tedious, I surely use words to over compensate, to a fault. I’ve largely with drawn from the ‘conventional’ which has meant withdrawing from people, society. In recent years I’ve turned to books, I first came across the term ‘dialectical’ in ‘Sophie’s World’ – apparently not a heavy weight book and one that, I think, is the target of unfortunate derision.
In the last couple of years I’ve read quite a lot about the history and philosophy of science and general populist philosophy. Just in the last couple of days I’ve started on a book called The Argumentative Indian by Amartya Sen. I come across the word ‘dialectic’ quite a lot, I generally think of it as a rather hopeful inspired idea, I do manage to have some semblance of hope in my life, and usually try to extend that to others. I’m aware that I was a bit careless in the way I initially came across on this forum (perhaps still do come across) partly because I’ve had negative experiences with forums in the past, and because I’m just generally so jaded. I acknowledge that, for most people, ‘dialectical’ probably has a rather uninspired analytical, methodological, connation… and so there you are, I’m the embodiment of irony,,, sad, pathetic, miserable irony.

I do have a sense of humour

I have watched this program with growing incredulity, a deepening depression about the state of education and the attitude of some young people.

I've also experienced growing anger that whilst these feckless, unpleasant youngsters have untold attention and budgets lavished on getting them to act half-way human there are people like my partner's child whose school have openly stated they 'don't know how to handle', not because of bad behaviour or learning difficulties but because his IQ is in the 170s and he's been dubbed 'gifted'. Whilst the Government states that children such as those shown on The Unteachable must have suitable teaching provision made, children who are gifted are left to rot. My partner's son was shunted up 2 years in his primary school but wasn't allowed to move up to secondary school so now has to sit and fester whilst children he left behind 2 years ago catch up. There's no special teaching provision for him - why should there be? He's no problem and all that can happen to him is that he gets bored and starts slipping down to that nice little band of 'average' that school seem to prefer all pupils in. We go out and buy university grade medical books and pay for extra tuition just to keep the child's mind here and stop him giving up!

So I watch The Unteachables and I get livid. Livid because these children shouldn't be pampered and applauded if they manage to get through a lesson without throwing a hissy fit and screaming expletives. They won't be wrapped up in cotton wool when/IF they gain employment, they'll be fired.

I honestly think that if these children don't want to learn, either because they've had a poor upbringing or because they're simply not well socialised then pull them out of school and put them in work (no benefits!). Let them taste a year of life in a zero-hour minimum wage job, paying for everything themselves. Don't let them remain in school where the only thing they manage to achieve is the disruption of every other child's education.

To be honest...and I don't care if I sound like a middle-England Tory pensioner (I'm the opposite of those things), I'd love to get my hands on any one of those kids and put the lazy, selfish little slobs to some good hard manual labour out in the environment where if they don't work, they don't eat.

Heswallem! Manna from heaven! You mirror my own thoughts exactly! I too am fed up with these "poor unfortunates" being lavished with days out and late starts at school because they can't manage in at the same time as the rest of the kids. My own school operates a restricted timetable with the "problem" kids only having to attend on certain days at certain times. They only attend certain lessons???? If they behave well enough they are rewarded with, perhaps, a trip to Alton Towers!!! Meanwhile the rest of the kids who attend regularly and try their best sit and watch and wonder "Who is the mug?" I had a 1st. year boy tell me today that he was "walking out man" because I had the temerity to tell him he would receive a negative comment on his Conduct Card due to his persistent interruption. This is in a class in which I already make vast allowances for the behaviour of the kids anyway. His parents are supportive of the school's action but the boy is totally out of control. Like you I feel that a stiff spell in National Service with no chance of "opting out" would do no harm. Recent programmes like "Bad Lads Army" has shown what this type of treatment can do for even persistent offenders. As for the benefits system - do not get me started!!!!

Oh Dear! What an enormous problem we have with state education. the lucky ones, like me manage to get through it, others end up on benefits, teenagers with kids or in prison. There are no boundaries of behaviour any more, I couldn't stand the bad language in the programme or the way the kids were allowed to smoke, ie killing themselves with a legalised drug. And the teachers mirroed there behaviour using bad language to capture their attemtion. What a soory state of affairs this is. We are creating a underclass of people through such lenient practices in schools.

I have to agree coco. In my school days kids like these just did not exsist. It is only because they have been allowed to get away with it all their lives that they have grown into teenagers like they are. The treatment being tried in this programme is having only limited success at best, and on a nationwide scale the cost would be prohibative. The old methods worked! Why ever did we abandon them?

Having had a good night's sleep/watching badgers playing in the front garden, I thought I'd approach this subject afresh and write a calmer post ;-)

My schooling took place in the 80s in a very unremarkable rural school. It wasn't a good academic education and I wasn't a model pupil so I left with pretty poor A Level grades and a general lack of direction. We had our school troublemakers but, hand on heart, I can say that I never saw a pupil act the way any of those children acted in a classroom situation. Despite my pretty poor academic grades I consider myself fairly well educated; not because I have wide academic knowledge but because my family gave me good life skills without me even realising I was being taught. It's come home to me in recent years the difference between the kids around me and what I knew as a kid. It saddens me that many kids I talk to can't recognise a single species of tree and only a couple of birds. They know nothing much at all about the world around them; I've had kids absolutely astounded at the prospect of picking things in the wild to eat (puffballs, crabapples, elderberries etc) or the process of killing a chicken or growing a carrot for the table.

I remember seeing something on TV about an alternative form of education (unfortunately I've now forgotten the method!) which teaches academic subjects alongside such things as growing vegetables, animal husbandry, cooking and all those sorts of skills which help create a rounded and healthy individual. I also couldn't help but notice that the children in that school had far superior communication skills than most kids I meet and they appeared curious, happy and respectful of teachers and each other.

It seems to me that we have many children whose parents have no parenting skills and who are stuck in an education that's been tailored specifically to shunt people through the examination mill. They don't learn life skills (I met a school leaver recently who didn't realise that he'd have tax taken out of his pay and had never heard of NI!) and they don't learn how to become rounded individuals. So what happens? They grow up on a diet of TV meals and junk food because they can't cook and don't know how to grow vegetables. They watch countless hours of TV because they've never learned to communicate or socialise properly and they've never been introduced to the concept of getting involved in the community or exploring hobbies. They've never had initiative or responsibility encouraged so they have none and expect everything done for them and if something goes wrong, then it's somebody else's fault. These people then have children and they have nothing to teach those children so they fill their lives with TVs and games consoles...and so things slowly but surely spiral downwards.

I remember one childhood summer I was being particularly withdrawn and difficult and my Grandmother took me off to Mull for a month, made me sleep in a tent and filled my days with walking up mountains, learning out to fly fish and creep up on deer, spot eagles and help out the local farmer. It worked.

So I think that's how I'd approach education if I could - a good mixture of academic learning, physical exercise, community involvement, animal husbandry and nutrition (growing & cooking food). Those are the skills needed for life.

I agree to a certain extent with the many other posters, who have said that it is unfair that pupils such as the ones in the programme get rewards, while those who behave get very little. However, when met with similar comments from teenagers themselves, I have asked them if they would rather be themselves (without the rewards) or have the life of the others (with the rewards). They ALWAYS say they want to be themselves. Doesn't this tell us something?

In my school days we were given rewards for being naughty. They were called canes!

Oh I get so cross reading these posts, I really don't know why I put myself through it. After watching someone as enlightened, enthusiastic and dynamic as Phil Beadle I had hoped for more of the same on the forum. How wrong can you be! The only voice of reason I have read is that from Lady Godiva and I salute you Maam.For goodness sakes, why can you not see how privelged you all are in many more ways than one. You seem to have lost sight of the achievement of your qualifications and are dismissive of them, the privelegeof having the opportunity to inspire young minds and so on. It appears from your posts that you are bitter and frustrated and would rather waste your energies and intellect on justifying why a personshould not be allowed to wear a coat should s/he wish to do so. As for the apparent God given right of adults, just because thay are adults to respectI point to the issues of power and powerlessness that are inherent in such a relationship. I would then draw attention to factors such as intimidation and humilation and would also like to draw attention to the unprecedented rise in child cruelty and abuse.
Cruelty and abuse are often able to be carried through as the perpetrator is very often a respected adult. One consequence of what can happen in a society that blindly subjugates childrens' status, simply because they are children
As to view that our 'civilised society' should bring back the cane, the birch, National Service or whatever, I would like to ask at what point in history should we stop at. Should we return to hanging people for stealing bread, or simply deport them by shooting them off to outer space? Perhaps it would be a good idea, economically and for the education system, to return to shoving children up flue's to clean them out.
Personally I think that there should be a lot of hanging and it should be all of you priveleged professionals hanging your heads in shame.
And before anybody posts questioning my teaching experience, I have been teaching for 30 years, the last 5 with those traumatised and damaged by our wonderful and I feel still, class based education system.

The points Big Muvver makes are fair enough, but even adults who go off the rails and break the rules of society have to be controlled or disciplined. We put them in prison or fine them a lot of money or take their driving licenses away, etc. These days we constantly get reports of sheer mayhem in some of the classrooms in our schools and there seems to be no method of controlling unruly pupils. This is unfair to the good kids who want to learn, and is not a good atmosphere for them to grow up in.

The unteachables have become so partly due to the pressure put on schools to supply league tables.

I am a Youth Worker and work closely with a large number of the so called unteachables. For a lot of these young people praise can go a long way to change their attitudes towards education.

My first time on this forum. I have seen a bit of this programme and am impressed by how some of the kids have excelled. Impractical in the real world of course - donn't really know why I've come here except to say that most of those unteachable kids didn't really have problems as such - they just felt that they had rights and were special 'needed special teaching' what has gone wrong? All of us are special - school is a place where we go to learn - kids who have either been so spoiled/mollycoddled/neglected whatever shouldn't feel that they're diffrent to anyone else! school is school - we all have to do it - get on with it. Whilst this has been a wonderful experiment there are not the resources to do it big time. My worry is for the mediocre kids - bright kids (no matter what other posters here mayt say) always get their recognition one way or another - special needs kids get all sorts of incentives and encouragement - WHAT ABOUT YOUR EVERYDAY AVERAGE STUDENTS!!!!!!??????????

I have to agree with easy rider that the middle-of-the-road pupils are in danger of being left behind. Schools nowadays will cater for the disruptive pupils and those who require help due to special needs but the middle-roaders just have to get on with it. The point made about the disruption caused to these kids by the shennanigans of the others is well known. As for being "bitter and frustrated" (big muvver) you are so right! I look forward to every day hoping that I will be able to make some difference in some kids lives only to be sworn at or have my lesson degraded simply because it does not "entertain" some kids. I consider myself to be a good teacher, employing various methods in the classroom to teach. These include visual, audio and I.T. means so that a wide range of approaches are made to the class. Despite this there are those who do not wish to learn and would be better off in Technical or H.E. etc. This is the system's fault and reiterates what I have said previously. Some kids will never be "Academics" but can be great tradesmen or chefs etc. Until our education system recognises the need for practical trades to be taught at Secondary level we will never be rid of this problem

I would just like to say, although it may be a little late in the series, that on reading your views i totally agree with you, I work in a childrens home with teenagers with emotional and behavioural problems and can only imagine what it must be like to teach up to 20 young people in a class room. I think that the fact that as a society we are accepting that all children are different and therefore need to be treated as individuals, (within reason) can only be a postive thing.I would just like to commnet to the average Joes of this world that "bad behaviuor" can often be a sign of other emotional issues and can also be an indicator of abuse.

that message was for Ladygodiva and I apologise for my spelling and grammatical mistakes something which I am sure Average Joe will be so kind as to point out

We are all born with our animal instincts which we would need to survive in the jungle. Kids have to be taught to abandon or adjust these and replace them with civilised values.Unfortunately that is not happening with a lot of youngsters today. They are just left to come up rather than be brought up, resulting in so much bad behavour.

Sarahbbb: Your post was well written and did not contain many grammatical or spelling errors, although why you single me out to comment upon them I do not know! Your comment on bad behaviour being part of underlying conditions is not lost on me either. As a teacher of some 30 years standing I am well aware of these possible problems. However, the number and frequency with which these "problem" children arise appears, to me at least, to be far higher than one could reasonably expect in an average school. In my Primary School days, 1955-1961, there were "poor" academic kids but they did not display the same kind of behaviour as those of today. Are we to assume that today's children are more deprived than those of 50 years ago? In terms of parenting I can see that as being the case.

I am a 21 year old, 1st year student Studying BA Hons Education and would just like to say that o thought the education system failed me and many people around me. I come from a lower class community, my mother a cleaner and my father(divorced) on disablilty. My role model (older sister) fell pregnant at 19. I never had a goal and felt school only wanted me to get them results. I suffered with bad anxiety all through school and only recieved help this year through councelling. Teachers didn't know my name after years of teaching me. I never wrote a thing in half my classes and I hardly ever got stimulated. The only thing I knew how to do was drinking, drugs and partying at 14 years old. I wanted to learn but felt no motivation or support off anyone. Is this what education is?
I believe small alternative schooling such as Steiner Waldorf and Montessori schools is the way forwards. In successful nonmainstream schools, staff members consider counseling students as a part of their job, follow up daily on absent students, model positive behaviors for students, and use individualized, hands-on curriculum, and goal-setting with students. Tony blair has just released a new proposal that seems way behind the game towards this kind of learning,including self-governing and alot more community and parental involvment and control. Why are we holding back from bringing these therories into practice? Am I the only one who can see the light.

quote:

Originally posted by Average_Joe:
Sarahbbb: Your post was well written and did not contain many grammatical or spelling errors, although why you single me out to comment upon them I do not know! Your comment on bad behaviour being part of underlying conditions is not lost on me either. As a teacher of some 30 years standing I am well aware of these possible problems. However, the number and frequency with which these "problem" children arise appears, to me at least, to be far higher than one could reasonably expect in an average school. In my Primary School days, 1955-1961, there were "poor" academic kids but they did not display the same kind of behaviour as those of today. Are we to assume that today's children are more deprived than those of 50 years ago? In terms of parenting I can see that as being the case.

I

I think that the shift in looking at young people as indiviuals and therfore educating them as such is a good idea, however I do agree with your veiw that parents have alot to answer for,in my experience the very root of most children's behaviuoral problems lie firmly at the parents feet (that is apart from learning disabilties).I would have liked to have seen the parents much more involved in the process in the unteachables.Parents need to take responsibility for their childrens education. I dont know if I am repeating comments that have already been made but the system itself is very much to blame in alot of cases.I would love to see a documentary on young people in care in the eductation system, as these disadvantaged young people, with very specific needs are the least catered for in the system. Almost all of my experiences with education system from this end, have been very negative.

quote:

Originally posted by glynis:
I am a 21 year old, 1st year student Studying BA Hons Education and would just like to say that o thought the education system failed me and many people around me. I come from a lower class community, my mother a cleaner and my father(divorced) on disablilty. My role model (older sister) fell pregnant at 19. I never had a goal and felt school only wanted me to get
them results. I suffered with bad anxiety all through school and only recieved help this year through councelling. Teachers didn't know my name after years of teaching me. I never wrote a thing in half my classes and I hardly ever got stimulated. The only thing I knew how to do was drinking, drugs and partying at 14 years old. I wanted to learn but felt no motivation or support off anyone. Is this what education is?
I believe small alternative schooling such as Steiner Waldorf and Montessori schools is the way forwards. In successful nonmainstream schools, staff members consider counseling students as a part of their job, follow up daily on absent students, model positive behaviors for students, and use individualized, hands-on curriculum, and goal-setting with students. Tony blair has just released a new proposal that seems way behind the game towards this kind of learning,including self-governing and alot more community and parental involvment and control. Why are we holding back from bringing these therories into practice? Am I the only one who can see the light.

It is people like you that, in my opinion, the education system is crying out for, the very fact that you have not had a perfect adolescence and have also had negative experiences of school youself will mean that you are to relate to the pupils who are struggling in the same ways. I think the main reason that the young people featured in the unteachables got on so well with Phil was because he did not patronise them and they felt that he was genuinly interested in what they had to say and he was "real" with them. As a society we have to move with the times, the world is the same as 50 years ago so why should the education system be. Wish you all the very best in your studies.